Czerwiec 1940 na pd Pacyfiku

Okręty Wojenne lat 1905-1945

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fdt
Posty: 1644
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Post autor: fdt »

Hmmmm z tym 1940 rokiem to chyba przeoczyliśmy jeden dość chyba istotny statek... lodołamacz.

Od 1937 roku toczy się wojna w Chinach.

http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmachina.htm
Significant aspects of Soviet-Japanese rivalry in the late 1930s remain in shadow like the massive Soviet military aid to the Quomingtang government in China during the Sino-Japanese war, although it was precisely the Soviet involvement which strenghened Chinese defence capabilities significantly. Diplomatic relations between Quomintang government and the USSR were resumed on December 12, 1932, opening way for further cooperation after years of hostility and confrontation. After the non-agression pact between China and USSR was signed on the 21st of August 1937, a rapid intensification of the military cooperation followed, boosted by the unprecedented aid package of 250 mln USD spearheading the Soviet involvement into the raging war. The first negotiations of the high-ranked military experts of both sides took place in Moscow on September 9, 1937—October 4, 1937, where the Soviet side agreed to begin the immediate supply of the Chinese airforce with desperately needed hardware, namely with 225 fighter planes. It was rather unusual for contemporary international practice to begin deliveries before actual agreements on the military aid loan were signed: thus the first agreement on the initial aid packege of 50 mln USD was signed on March 1, 1938, and by that time 282 Soviet aircraft were delivered to the Chinese. As a matter of fact, by late 1937 only some 20 Chinese planes remained serviceable, compared with 500 available at the beginning of the year. This fact underlines the importance of Soviet engagement for the military planning of both sides.

In early 1930s the Chinese armed forces were aided by a group of German military experts, led by Generals Berger, Seekt and Falkenhausen, which until 1937 worked under individual contracts, and in May 1937 was officially recognized as a foreign Wehrmacht military mission of 70 representatives. However, following the development of cooperation between Germany and Japan the activities of German military mission in China faced a stalemate, especially after Germany recognized the Japanese puppet-state Manchoukuo in May 1938. In May 1938 the German mission was recalled under pretext of the arrival of Soviet military advisers. In early 1938 the group of Soviet military experts, officers and advisers replaced the German mission of General Falkenhausen aiding the Chinese High Command, all in all 300 experts and 5000 technical aides arriving on the rotation basis within 1937-1938 time span, including pilots, tankers, weapons experts, technicians, medical workers, staff officers. Among the most prominent names one finds future marshals of the Soviet Union, like P.S.Rybalko, K.P.Kazakov, V.I.Chuikov, P.F. Zhygariev and several future generals, among them the notorious A.Vlasov. The post of Chief Military Adviser at the Chinese High Command was given to Soviet General M.Dratvin, who in November 1937—August 1938 was also the Soviet military attache. Subsequently, the Chief Military Advisers were: general A.Cherepanov (August 1938—August 1939), General K.Kachanov (September 1939—February 1941), and General V.Chuikov (February 1941—February 1942). Throughout 1938—1940 the Soviet military attaches were General N.Ivanov and P.Rybalko, and in 1940—1942 the post was held by General V.Chuikov.
Moreover, massive amounts of military hardware have been shipped by sea via French Indochina, Burma and Chinese ports and by air via Alma-Ata(capital of the Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic), including 985 aircraft, 82 tanks (T-26 type), 1317 artillery pieces, 1550 trucks, 30 tractors, 14,025 machine-guns, 164,5 mln rifle cartidges, 1,9 mln artillery shells and 82300 bombs. However, some additional 265 aircraft were delivered prior to 1941, as well as other hardware. The supplies of hardware from the Soviet Union were vital for maintaining the fighting capabilities of all branches of Chinese armed forces, namely mechanized units and airforce. In August 1938 the arrival of 82 Soviet T-26 tanks enabled the formation of 1st Mechanized Division, in fact led by the Soviet adviser, Major Chesnokov. Later division was transformed into the 5th Mechanized army, reinforced by the Soviet-made BA-type armoured cars, and participating in combat since October 1938 under the guidance of Soviet Major P.Belov. Soviet instructors played an important role in improving the practical skills of the Chinese artillery officers and trained the Chinese infantry officer-cadets, and, moreover, participated in combat, mainly in armoured and artillery units.
Among the airplanes shipped to China with the Soviet crews in 1937 were the formidably maneuverable I-15 and I-16 fighter planes, high-speed bombers of the SB type, heavy TB-3 bombers and long-range DB-3 bomber planes, which allowed the Soviet command to counter massive Japanese air attacks with superb equipment and manpower, with the pilots having fought for several years in Spain and possessing combat experience the Japanese could hardly boast. In 1937—1940 the Soviet side delivered 563 fighter planes (I-15, I-15bis, I-16 and I-153) and 322 bomber planes (292 SB bombers, 24 DB-3 bombers and 6 heavy TB-3 bombers).


The Chief Soviet Airforce Military Advisers were: Colonels G.Thor, P.Rychagov and F.Polynin, all prominent airmen, especially P.Rychagov, who managed to make a very impressive, if only short-lived, career after returning from China. The first group of Soviet airmen arrived to Alma-Ata on October 21, 1937, en-route to China, consisting of 447 servicemen (pilots, techicians, engineers, mechanics, radio-operators, meteorologists, airbase service experts, decoders, military doctors, drivers, constructions specialists, etc.). By early February 1939 there were 712 Soviet airmen serving in China, nominally on voluntary basis. The flight to China from Alma-Ata was a formidable challenge since the route covered the desert and mountainous regions of the Northwestern China, and the improvised airfields situated along the route were unfit for heavy bombers of the SB type, lacked communication facilites and the meteorological services for the briefing of pilots. The Soviet aircraft were usually carrying excess number of servicemen, and the reserve quantities of fuel and ammunition. Once they arrived, the overloaded aircraft lacked the necessary repair facilities, technical service and command-and-control infrastructure. Chinese airfields lacked even the most necessary technical facilities: the DB-3 bombers, for instance, which needed 1500 litres of fuel, were filled up by 200-300 local peasants lined in a file, carrying metal cans of gasoline. Climate conditions also presented a challenge: during heavy rains the airfields, lacking elementary drainage facilities, were rapidly turning into swamps, and during snowstorms in the mountainous regions the snowdrifts prevented normal landing. The existing Chinese airbases with concrete air-strips, hangares, protected fuel-reservoirs and good repair workshops were generally well-known to the Japanese, and were heavily bombed throughout the war. On the other hand, the available labour resources enabled to erect effective defense bulwarks made of bags filled with sand and gravel, quite useful during Japanese air-raids targetting the airfields. The first group of Soviet fighter and bomber pilots included F.Dobysh, I.Kozlov, V.Kurdiumov, M.Machin and G.Prokofiev, who saw action on December 1, 1937, when 20 Japanese aircraft were overtaken by 7 Soviet I-16 planes over Nanking. After flying five combat sorties the Soviet airmen managed to shoot down, according to their reckoning, 2 Japanese bombers and one I-96 fighter. Soon afterwards a group of 9 Soviet SB bombers succesfully bombed Shanghai, attacking Japanese airfield and the vessels stationed in local harbour, claiming about a dozen of destroyed aircraft, 6 damaged ships and one auxilary cruiser sunk. In November 1937 the second group of 150 Soviet airmen flying SB bombers arrived from Transbaikal Military District, pioneering the new route Irkutsk—Lanchou—Hankou across the Mongolian steppes. In December 1937—February 1938 a Soviet fighter squadron of I-15 fighters (commander A.Blagoveshchensky) arrived in 3 groups. During the aerial engagement over Uchan on February 18, 1938 the Soviet fighters claimed 18 victories, mostly Japanese bombers, and on May 31 they shot down 14 enemy aircraft. The effectiveness of Soviet aerial support was proved by the official Japanese request to withdraw the pilots fighting for Chinese airforce, aired in April 1938, rejected by the USSR under pretext that the pilots serving in China were merely volunteers.

Typical Soviet combat missions included support of the ground troops, bomber raids against Japanese airfields, important railway stations, highways and shipping. The most ferocious fighting took place in the context of the so-called Uchan defensive operation in July—October 1938. Shortly before, a new squadron of SB bombers (66 pilots) arrived from USSR, led by Colonel G.Thor, who previously participated in the Spanish Civil war. The squadron specialized in disrupting the Japanese navigation on the Yangtze river, vital for the supply of the Japanese ground troops, claiming 16 Japanese transport vessels damaged and 92 sunk (including a hydroplane carrier). As a result, the Japanese were forced to establish serious anti-aircraft defence measures: deploying AA batteries at the piers, arming the transport vessels with machine-guns and building several new airfields along the Yangtze river. In July 1938 the large-scale aerial battle over Uchan took place, where 40 Soviet I-15 and I-16 fighters led by Captain E.Nikolaenko confronted 200 Japanese aircraft.

By the year of 1939, the Soviet airforce based in China has scored a number of impressive victories over the battlefield, and yet the numerically superior Japanese aircraft were able to deliver crushing airstrikes both against virtually undefended large Chinese cities and military installations, possessing a developed network of airfields and superior reconaissaince the Soviets desperately lacked, it was therefore decided to carry out a surprise air-raid over the Japanese territory to boost the morale of Chinese troops, inflict damage to the pride and self-confidence of Japanese airmen and to test the capabilities of the AA defence the Japan possessed at the moment. After the reconnaissance mission carried out on the 21st of February 1939, a group of the 28 Soviet SB bombers led by excellent bomber pilot F.P.Polynin attacked the Japanese air base near Taipei (Taiwan, also known as Formosa) on the 23rd of February, destroying up to 40 Japanese aircraft on the ground and demolishing the extensive fuel dumps, losing not a single bomber in the raid, with Japanese AA defence of the base left in ruins.

On the following day the smaller group of the Soviet aircraft returned to attack secondary targets, meeting sporadic resistance of Japanese fighter planes and AA artillery, which, however, did not prevent the Soviets from bombing Japanese islands on the 20th of May 1939, dropping bombs and safely returing to the Chinese mainland. In October and November 1939 Chungking became the scene of intensive aerial battles, where hundreds of aircraft were involved from both sides.

All in all, about 200 Soviet pilots were killed in China in 1937—1939, including Lieutenant A.Gubenko, who on May 31, 1938 committed the conscious ramming attack against Japanese A5M2 fighter, first in the Soviet airforce and second in the world history of aerial power. Of these 200 airmen 111 were killed in air-crashes caused by difficult weather conditions, weak navigation support and inexperience of younger pilots in the little-known theater. About 80 Japanese aircraft were shot down in aerial combat by the Soviet pilots, 14 of whom were awarded “Hero of the Soviet Union” order for outstanding performance either as combat pilots, military advisers and instructors, 400 servicemen were decorated with different awards. In Janury 1940 the majority of Soviet pilots left China, having trained a generation of Chinese airmen and providing them the remaining hardware, and the remaining personnel was evacuated in early 1942.
A w kwietniu 1941 roku...
PACT OF NEUTRALITY BETWEEN UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST
REPUBLICS AND JAPAN

The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of teh Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics and His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, guided
by a desire to strengthen peaceful and friendly relations
between teh two countries, have decided to conclude a pact on
neutrality, for which purpose they have appointed as their
Representatives:

the Presidum of teh Supreme Soviet of teh Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics -

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Molotov, Chairman of the Council of
People's Commissars and People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs of
the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics;

His Majesty the Emperor of Japan -

Yosuke Matsuoka, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Jusanmin, Cavalier
of the Order of teh Sacred Treasure of the First Class, and

Yoshitsugu Tatekawa, Ambassador Extraordinary and
Plenipotentiary to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,
Lieutenant General, Jusanmin, Cavalier of the Order of the
Rising Sun of the First Class and the Order of the Golden Kite
of the Fourth Class,

who, after an exchange of their credentials, which were found in
due and proper form, have agreed on the following:

ARTICLE ONE

Both Contracting Parties undertake to maintain peaceful and
friendly relations between them and mutually respect the
territorial integrity and inviolability of the other Contracting
Party.

ARTICLE TWO

Should one of the Contracting Parties become the object of
hostilities on the part of one or several third powers, the
other Contracting Party will observe neutrality throughout the
duration of the conflict.

ARTICLE THREE

The present Pact comes into force from the day of its
ratification by both Contracting Parties and remains valid for
five years. In case neither of the Contracting Parties
denounces the Pact one year before the expiration of the term,
it will be considered automatically prolonged for the next five
years.

ARTICLE FOUR

The present Pact is subject to ratification as soon as possible.
The instruments of ratification shall be exchanged in Tokyo,
also as soon as possible.

In confirmation whereof the above-named Representatives have
signed the present Pact in two copies, drawn up in the Russian
and Japanese languages, and affixed thereto their seals.

Done in Moscow on April 13, 1941, which corresponds to the 13th
day of the fourth month of the 16th year of Showa.

V. MOLOTOV
YOSUKE MATSUOKA
YOSHITSUGU TATEKAWA
Ta gra to ciekawsza jest nawet od tych wyliczanek, ale widać z niej, że przed 13 IV 1941 o wojnie z jankami, to Japsy nie mogli nawet marzyć... Zauważcie też kiedy pojawiła się konieczność sformowania korpusu "ochotników" Chennaulta... Roosevelt wyraził swoją zgodę... 15 IV 1941. Super jest ta układanka... Koba to mial łeb sku... bany. Oj miał.
Ostatnio zmieniony 2006-03-02, 17:10 przez fdt, łącznie zmieniany 1 raz.
MiKo
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Post autor: MiKo »

radar pisze:jeszcze raz

moja hipoteza VI 1940 , stan floty japońskiej/ stan Am. Floty w got. bojowej + Atlantyk

BB -------------6+3+Kongo OS -----------12+ 1,New York,Texas OS
CV -------------4 (A5/A6,D1/D3,B5)------ 4+1 (F2/F3,SBU/SBC,TBD)
CVL------------ 2-----------------------------0
CA-------------18---------------------------- 6 + 11
Chciejstwo i gdybanie !!! :D


Ten jeden z dwóch japońskich CVL to HOSO? (bo jak tak to wolę LANGLEYA :D)
TEXAS nie był okrętem szkolnym w 1940 roku.
Dolicz 10000 tonowe BROOKLYNY z których każdy był równym przeciwnikiem dla CA
Nie wiem czemu podkreślasz słowo dwupłatowe... spójrz na swój ogródek... ;)

Ja oczyma wyobraźni widzę masakrę japońskiej floty.
MiKo
Admin FOW
Posty: 4050
Rejestracja: 2004-01-07, 09:02

Post autor: MiKo »

BB: 6 (z czego tylko 2 się do czegoś nadają) kontra 13
CV: 4+1 kontra 4+1
CA: 22 (przeniosłem Kongo do swojej wagi :D) kontra 27

Radar, to byłoby straszna rzeźnia, to jakby RKS Szmacianka Wybrzeże, przyjechała na stadion Legii
Adaś
Posty: 90
Rejestracja: 2005-12-04, 13:14

Post autor: Adaś »

O coś takiego chodziło?


HOSHO :27.12.1922
AKAGI :25.03.1925
KAGA : 1.11.1929
RYUJO : 9.05.1933
SORYU :29.12.1937
HIRYU : 5.07.1939
ZUIHO :27.12.1940
SHOKAKU : 8.08.1941
TAIYO :15.09.1941
ZUIKAKU :25.09.1941
SHOHO :30.11.1941
JUNYO : 3.05.1942
UNYO :31.05.1942
HIYO :31.07.1942
CHUYO :25.11.1942
RYUHO :30.11.1942
SHINYO :15.11.1943
KAYIO :23.11.1943
CHIYODA :21.12.1943
CHITOSE : 1.01.1944
TAIHO : 7.03.1944
UNRYU : 6.08.1944
AMAGI :10.08.1944
KATSURAGI :15.10.1944
SHINANO :19.11.1944



KONGO :16.08.1913
HIEI : 4.08.1914
KIRISHIMA :19.04.1915
HARUNA :19.04.1915
FUSO :07.11.1915
YAMASHIRO :31.03.1917
ISE :15.12.1917
HYUGA :30.04.1918
NAGATO :25.11.1920
MUTSU :24.10.1921
YAMATO :16.12.1941
MUSASHI : 5.08.1942
SHINANO prawd. wiosna 1944
NR.111 prawd. jesień 1944

Furutaka : 31.03.1926; 30.04.1939 zak. modernizacji
Kako : 20.07.1926; 27.12.1937 zak. modernizacji
Aoba : 20.09.1927; 1.09.1937 zak. modernizacji
Kinugasa : 30.09.1927; 1.09.1937 zak. modernizacji
Nachi : ?.04.1929; 1.12.1937 zak. modernizacji
Haguro : 25.04.1929; 28.04.1941 zak. modernizacji
Myoko : 31.07.1929; 28.04.1941 zak. modernizacji
Ashigara : 20.08.1929; 15.02.1939 zak. modernizacji
Atago : 30.03.1932; 30.10.1939 zak. modernizacji
Takao : 31.05.1932; 21.08.1939 zak. modernizacji
Maya : 30.06.1932
Chokai : 30.06.1932
Mogami : 28.07.1935 .04.1940 zak. modernizacji
Mikuma : 29.08.1935 .10.1939 zak. modernizacji
Suzuya : 31.10.1937; 30.09.1939 zak. modernizacji
Kumano : 31.10.1937; 20.10.1939 zak. modernizacji
Tone : 20.11.1938
Chikuma : 20.05.1939

Tatsuta : 31.03.1919
Tenryu : 20.11.1919
Kitakami : 3.07.1920
Kuma : 31.08.1920
Tama : 29.01.1921
Oi : 4.05.1921
Kiso : 4.05.1921
Nagara : 21.04.1922
Kinu : 10.11.1922
Natori : 15.11.1922
Yura : 20.03.1923
Yubari : 31.07.1923
Isuzu : 15.08.1923
Sendai : 29.04.1924
Abukuma : 26.05.1925
Naka : 30.11.1925
Jintsu : 21.07.1925
Katori : 20.04.1940
Kashima : 31.05.1940
Kashii : 15.07.1941
Agano : 31.10.1942
Oyodo : 28.02.1943
Noshiro : 1.05.1943
Yahagi : 29.12.1943
Sakawa : 30.11.1944

Za wszelkie uwagi z góry dziękuję. Zwłaszcza w kontekście remontów i modernizacji w okresie 1939- 1941.
radar
Posty: 427
Rejestracja: 2004-01-13, 15:29

Post autor: radar »

MiKo pisze:BB: 6 (z czego tylko 2 się do czegoś nadają) kontra 13
CV: 4+1 kontra 4+1
CA: 22 (przeniosłem Kongo do swojej wagi :D) kontra 27

Radar, to byłoby straszna rzeźnia, to jakby RKS Szmacianka Wybrzeże, przyjechała na stadion Legii
Sprowadzając zabawę do pionków na planszy. Chcesz wygrać z flotą cesarską przy uzyciu floty o Vkrąż.=10w, Vmax 18-20w, tylko dlatego, że potencjalnie jest tych pionków więcej?
Masz masę okrętów 4CV,12 CA/CL związanych zadaniami osłony i rozpoznania dla TF1(BBs). Bo na samodzielne skoki w bok pojedynczych CV nie masz odwagi (myśle kategoriami tamtych czasów).

Na jakiej podstawie więc zakładasz, że US Navy może zmusić do bitwy jakąkolwiek słabszą liczebnie i szybszą paczkę 6-10OL ?


PS
Zakładam, że 3 jutlandy atlantyckie (Tex,NY,Ark) + CV Ranger nie nadają się na Pacyfik, do niczego się nie nadają
radar
Posty: 427
Rejestracja: 2004-01-13, 15:29

Post autor: radar »

fdt pisze: Ta gra to ciekawsza jest nawet od tych wyliczanek, ale widać z niej, że przed 13 IV 1941 o wojnie z jankami, to Japsy nie mogli nawet marzyć... Zauważcie też kiedy pojawiła się konieczność sformowania korpusu "ochotników" Chennaulta... Roosevelt wyraził swoją zgodę... 15 IV 1941. Super jest ta układanka... Koba to mial łeb sku... bany. Oj miał.
Więc najszybciej lato 1941, ponieważ 2CV są zileone, czekamy do jesieni i wszelkie wcześniejsze daty nie są aktualne.

Co ciekawe US Navy przerzuca 3 New Mex + Yorktowna w tym czasie na Atlantyk i po kolei odstawia OL na dokowaniw na zach. wybrzeże.
Mamy więc warunki wyjściowe i zapraszam do zabawy pod tytułem.

Jaki winien być plan wojny dla 9BB i 3CV na PAcyfiku jesienią 1941?
Czy dobrym pomysłem byłoby działania demonstracyjne części floty liniowej w połaczeniu z WB ?.
radar
Posty: 427
Rejestracja: 2004-01-13, 15:29

Post autor: radar »

MiKo pisze:BB: 6 (z czego tylko 2 się do czegoś nadają) kontra 13
CV: 4+1 kontra 4+1
CA: 22 (przeniosłem Kongo do swojej wagi :D) kontra 27

Radar, to byłoby straszna rzeźnia, to jakby RKS Szmacianka Wybrzeże, przyjechała na stadion Legii
1945 PENNY-She anchored in Buckner Bay alongside Tennessee. On 12 August a Japanese torpedo plane slipped in over Buckner Bay without detection and launched a torpedo at Pennsylvania which lay at anchor. Hit well aft, Pennsylvania suffered extensive damage. Twenty men were killed and ten injured. Many compartments were flooded and Pennsylvania settled heavily by the stern. The flooding was brought under control by efforts of Pennsylvania’s repair parties and the prompt assistance of two salvage tugs. The following day, she was towed to more shallow water where salvage operations continued.

Nie wiem do czego przesunąć kilka z am. jutlandów. Panceniki Obrony Wybrzeża to odpowiada ich odporności na torpedy i w jakiś sposób ogranicza tendencję do kursów przestrzennych w kierunku "dennym"
radar
Posty: 427
Rejestracja: 2004-01-13, 15:29

Post autor: radar »

MiKo pisze:
radar pisze:
Chciejstwo i gdybanie !!! :D
Ten jeden z dwóch japońskich CVL to HOSO? (bo jak tak to wolę LANGLEYA :D)
TEXAS nie był okrętem szkolnym w 1940 roku.
Dolicz 10000 tonowe BROOKLYNY z których każdy był równym przeciwnikiem dla CA
Nie wiem czemu podkreślasz słowo dwupłatowe... spójrz na swój ogródek... ;)
Ja oczyma wyobraźni widzę masakrę japońskiej floty.
FDT ma racje i sprowadził romantyków do lata 1941 i można było wystartowac z 4CV,10BB/BC,18CA przeciw 9BB,3CV,12CA,6Cbrook
Ja oczami wyobraźni nie widzę przewagi UC NAvy, która nie pojdze w tym składzie do żadnej bitwy. Trzeba więc znaleźć pretekst.

Moja propozycja : DESANT WAKE I MIDWAY w XI/XII41pod nosem Kimmela i wystarczy poczekać. To co wyrabiał Pye przy akcji odsieczy dla Wake daje Cesarstwu oczywisty handicap.

warunki wyjsciowe IJN: 6CV,2BC,6BB,1CVL,6CA contra US: 9BB,3CV,12CA,6Cbrook.

Jak tam z twoją wyobraźnią ? :P :-D :lol: 8) :oops: :wink: :roll: :shock: :( :) :-) :-(
Auffenberg
Posty: 193
Rejestracja: 2006-01-26, 18:42

Post autor: Auffenberg »

radar pisze: PS
Zakładam, że 3 jutlandy atlantyckie (Tex,NY,Ark) + CV Ranger nie nadają się na Pacyfik, do niczego się nie nadają
Te trzy pierwsze nadają się doskonale do strzelania się z okrętami t. Kongo, zaś dwa pierwsze dodatkowo z okrętami t. Fuso i Ise.

I jakie znowu jutlandy?
Te od tarzających się po pokładzie ze śmiechu brytyjskich oficerów, którzy kilka lat wcześniej strzelali jak dziady?
Awatar użytkownika
fdt
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Post autor: fdt »

Tak tylko dla poszerzenia wiedzy:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/Geor ... _china.htm
At the beginning of 1940 relations between the USSR and China worsened. The basic reason appears to have been the discontinuation of supplies by the Chang Kaishi government to the Communist 8th and New 4th Armies. This was very displeasing to the Soviet leadership, and they sharply reduced military assistance. Advisors remained, but our pilots no longer flew at the front. Supply of aircraft, it is true, continued.

Among the aircraft supplied, the SB continued to feature. Delivery of aircraft from the USSR continued almost until the beginning of the Great patriotic War. The last machines were handed over to the Chinese only in June 1941. Among the aircraft delivered to China from the beginning of 1941 were SBs of he last series with M-103 motors and the upper, enclosed MV-3 turret. The Chinese knew them as the SB-III (aircraft with the M-100 the Chinese call SB-2).[4] The 1st Air Group received the first new machines in the middle of January at the city of Hami (Xinjiang Province).

[..............]

The first half of 1941 were very hard days for Chinese aviation. As a result of the shortage of fighters and the complete air supremacy of the Japanese, the bombers continually had to disperse to various regions of northwest China. The 11th Squadron even covered part of its equipment in a dismantled state. The majority of Chinese air units refrained from combat and busied themselves with training flights,

[.................]

Already by the middle of 1941 the bombardment squadrons of the Chinese Air Force began to convert to American air equipment received under lend-lease. In August the 9th Squadron converted to the Lockheed A-29. By the middle of October the entire Group was transitioning to it. A year later the 10th Squadron converted.. In August 1943 the 1st Group received an order to send their crews to India to take possession of American B-25 bombers.

However, they continued to use the remaining Soviet aircraft for training as late as 1944. The last DB-3s continued to serve in various places until September 1943. The SB even survived the destruction of Japan and also took part in the civil war! Several aircraft were included in the Northern-Western Combined Squadron of the Chang Kaishi forces, based at Tihua. In November-December 1945 they supported the forces defending the city of Paotao. They dropped bombs, and also supplies for the besieged. The last Chinese SBs concluded their flying career at the beginning of 1946.

According to Chinese information, during the eight years of the Sino-Japanese war the Chinese Air Force received 2351 foreign aircraft, including 566 bombers (322 Soviet: 292 - SB, 24 DB-3, 6 TB-3,and 244 American.) All our aircraft contributed all that they could to the repulse of the Japanese militarists during the beginning period of that war.
A to sprawa z gatunku ciekawostek... lotniczych.
By this time the Chinese pilots had already mastered our SB sufficiently that they began to complete combat sorties not as part of mixed groups but on their own. On the night of 20 May 1938 in the SB they even completed a flight over Japan dropping on Kyushu and Osaka Prefecture about one million leaflets.
MiKo
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Post autor: MiKo »

radar pisze: Sprowadzając zabawę do pionków na planszy. Chcesz wygrać z flotą cesarską przy uzyciu floty o Vkrąż.=10w, Vmax 18-20w, tylko dlatego, że potencjalnie jest tych pionków więcej?
Masz masę okrętów 4CV,12 CA/CL związanych zadaniami osłony i rozpoznania dla TF1(BBs). Bo na samodzielne skoki w bok pojedynczych CV nie masz odwagi (myśle kategoriami tamtych czasów).

Na jakiej podstawie więc zakładasz, że US Navy może zmusić do bitwy jakąkolwiek słabszą liczebnie i szybszą paczkę 6-10OL ?


PS
Zakładam, że 3 jutlandy atlantyckie (Tex,NY,Ark) + CV Ranger nie nadają się na Pacyfik, do niczego się nie nadają
Radarro!

Nie zakładam realistycznych scenariuszów ze względu na przedstawioną przez Ciebie koncepcję z gatunku S-F w stylu 1200 torped.... skoro nie trzymamy się realiów od początku to nie wymagaj teraz tego ode mnie.

Wygrywam bo mam więcej okrętów, armat, pancerza, a z węzłów się nie strzela. Nie muszę skakać w bok. Mam pancerną pięść, stalowy młot demokracji, który rozgniecie imperialne zakusy dzikusów. Mam FCSy Forda i karabiny maszynowe kalibru 152mm. Na krążownikach nie mam torped więc nie będą one wylatywać w powietrze przy pierwszej iskrze. Nie uciekniesz bo musisz bronić swoich destantów. A twoja flota musi bronić konwojów. Każdy konwój musi mieć ileś tam okrętów wojennych itd.


A japońskie plany decydującej bitwy na 1941 były takie (żeby to trochę urealinić):

Najpierw atakuje w nocy Druga Flota (Zenshin Butai) :
1 dywizjon pancerników 4BC
1 dywizjon "torpedowników" 3-4 CL (120 torped)
2 dywizjony krążowników 8 CA (192 torped)
2 flotylle niszczycieli 32 sztuk + 2CL (512 torped)

W dzień atakuje Pierwsza Flota (Siły Główne):
2 dywizjony pancerników - 6BB
2 dywizjony krążowników - 8CA
2 flotylle niszczycieli - 32DD + 2CL
4 dywizjony OP - 48OP

W czasie pojedynku artyleryjskiego (sic!) atakują 3 nosiciele po 12 midżetów każdy (96 torped)

Pod koniec bitwy do ataku ruszają krążowniki z Sił Głównych i okręty podwodne.

O lotniskowcach nic nie mówią... (może będą dowoziły picie i jedzenie dla walczących :D)

Choć w planach bitwy z 1936 roku jeden dywizjon lotniskowców był w Pierwszej Flocie i dwa w Drugiej.

PS
Na moje Tex,NY,Ark + CV Ranger wyślij FUSO, YAMA, ISE + Hoso -będzie remis :D
MiKo
Admin FOW
Posty: 4050
Rejestracja: 2004-01-07, 09:02

Post autor: MiKo »

radar pisze:Nie wiem do czego przesunąć kilka z am. jutlandów. Panceniki Obrony Wybrzeża to odpowiada ich odporności na torpedy i w jakiś sposób ogranicza tendencję do kursów przestrzennych w kierunku "dennym"
Radarro! nie przesadzaj, zawsze może być gorzej. Wylecieć w powietrze w porcie ?!?!? :P
MiKo
Admin FOW
Posty: 4050
Rejestracja: 2004-01-07, 09:02

Post autor: MiKo »

fdt pisze: A to sprawa z gatunku ciekawostek... lotniczych.
By this time the Chinese pilots had already mastered our SB sufficiently that they began to complete combat sorties not as part of mixed groups but on their own. On the night of 20 May 1938 in the SB they even completed a flight over Japan dropping on Kyushu and Osaka Prefecture about one million leaflets.
Phi, też mi ciekawostka, my tu na FOW już dawno o tym... :P
http://fow.aplus.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1733
Awatar użytkownika
fdt
Posty: 1644
Rejestracja: 2004-01-04, 15:49
Lokalizacja: Elbląg

Post autor: fdt »

MiKo pisze:
fdt pisze: A to sprawa z gatunku ciekawostek... lotniczych.
By this time the Chinese pilots had already mastered our SB sufficiently that they began to complete combat sorties not as part of mixed groups but on their own. On the night of 20 May 1938 in the SB they even completed a flight over Japan dropping on Kyushu and Osaka Prefecture about one million leaflets.
Phi, też mi ciekawostka, my tu na FOW już dawno o tym... :P
http://fow.aplus.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1733
Phi... ale wy tam tylko w tzw "kontekście sprzętowym" o tym pisaliście... a tu w kontekście wszechświatowo strategicznym to zupełnie inną wymowę ma... :P
radar
Posty: 427
Rejestracja: 2004-01-13, 15:29

Post autor: radar »

Za Lacroix Torpedo tactics 1940 249/250 str. sam mi kazałeś ją kupić

US Navy przybywa

120 Nell/Betty = 120 t za jedny razem !!!
4 dywizjony OP - 48 OP - tego się nie da przeliczyć, przy 23w były ku temu realne możliwości = 20 ataków = 80 t
Mizuho 12liliputów x2 = 16t

Najpierw atakuje w nocy Druga Flota (Zenshin Butai) :
2 dywizjon pancerników 4BC
17 dywizjon "torpedowników" 3-4 CL (120 torped)
3,5,7,8dywizjony krążowników 14 CA (260-280 torped)
4 flotylle niszczycieli 64 sztuk + 4CL (1024 torped)

Jeśli będzie taka potrzeba zaatakuje Pierwsza Flota (Siły Główne):
1 dywizjony pancerników - 6BB
4 dyw. 4CA

nie wiem gdzie tu wcisnąć 2 dyw. 2x2CV, po IV41 Kido Butai 6CV. Od 90 do 126 T za jednym razem.
Zakładając pewność siebie jaką reprezentujesz, skutki zastosowanej taktyki byłyby pełniejsze.

Manewr,walka nocna i torpeda w skali masowej (1500t OW, 100t OP, 300t ST). Tych argumentów używali od początku wieku z bdobrym skutkiem. Do końca 1941 r. wystarczały na równie przestarzałych w swej strategii Jankesów.

Ponieważ nie rozumiesz przewagi manewru w bitwie morskiej zapraszam do lektury kilku bitew (Cuszima, zatopienie Bluchera, Goeben), w których słabsza flota mogła wybrać, decydować o przebiegu bitwy bądz z tej bitwy móć zrezygnować.

US Navy potrzebowała 2 tygodni żeby się pojawić w okolicy M. Filipińskiego, czekanie na 3 starożytne BB zajęłoby kolejny miesiąc, a według Szoszkiewicza te Jutlandy mogły hasać z Vmax=18w,
JApończycy mogli zrobić w tym czasie wszystko aby przygotować sie na pochód US Navy. Czas działa na ich korzyść.

A ty jakoś nie masz pomysłu jak zmusić szybszego Dawida do bitwy z wolnieszym Goliatem. Nie pomogę Ci, bo sam bym nie wiedział co wymyślić dla tych zestarzałych PIONKÓW.
radar
Posty: 427
Rejestracja: 2004-01-13, 15:29

Post autor: radar »

MiKo pisze:
radar pisze:Nie wiem do czego przesunąć kilka z am. jutlandów. Panceniki Obrony Wybrzeża to odpowiada ich odporności na torpedy i w jakiś sposób ogranicza tendencję do kursów przestrzennych w kierunku "dennym"
Radarro! nie przesadzaj, zawsze może być gorzej. Wylecieć w powietrze w porcie ?!?!? :P
A słyszałeś, żeby jakilkolwiek OW wyleciał w powietrze na morzu bez przyczyny ?. W porciu, to własciwie standard. :D
ODPOWIEDZ